The Nuances of Possibility
On Sunday morning I asked the question, "Was it possible for Samson to resist Delilah and obey God?" Then we answered that question by saying "yes and no." In one sense, it was possible: each of us is a responsible moral agent, and can choose to obey or disobey. But in another sense, it wasn't: Samson's character had been formed, and his actions were simply the outworking of his character. It wasn't possible for him to act contrary to his character.
I could tell some of you were wrestling with this a little bit, because it's messy and you don't like the way I nuance definitions. (Sorry, that's the nature of language!!) This quote from John Frame might help:
Was it possible that Jesus' bones could be broken? ...Well, yes, in the sense that they had the same material composition as other human bones... On the other hand, God prevented the breaking of Jesus' bones in order to fulfill prophecy (John 19:36). So there is also a sense in which Jesus' bones could not be broken... The breaking of Jesus' bones was physically possible, but impossible by virtue of God's decree. So the concept of possibility is... complex. We are inclined to say that every event is either possible or impossible. But we can see that some events... are both possible and impossible in different respects. (from The Doctrine of God, p. 132)
Hope this helps clarify the ways in which 'going against your character' can be both possible and impossible.
I could tell some of you were wrestling with this a little bit, because it's messy and you don't like the way I nuance definitions. (Sorry, that's the nature of language!!) This quote from John Frame might help:
Was it possible that Jesus' bones could be broken? ...Well, yes, in the sense that they had the same material composition as other human bones... On the other hand, God prevented the breaking of Jesus' bones in order to fulfill prophecy (John 19:36). So there is also a sense in which Jesus' bones could not be broken... The breaking of Jesus' bones was physically possible, but impossible by virtue of God's decree. So the concept of possibility is... complex. We are inclined to say that every event is either possible or impossible. But we can see that some events... are both possible and impossible in different respects. (from The Doctrine of God, p. 132)
Hope this helps clarify the ways in which 'going against your character' can be both possible and impossible.
posted by Bob | 7:47 AM
25 Comments:
Bob,
I like Frame's statement about Christ, but not yours about Samson. I don't see how they relate I guess. I dont have much room to post a thought-out logical comment because I did not hear your sermon. But if you got it, send me an email of it. Looks like an interesting topic to wrestle with.
hawaiian_man_02@hotmail.com
First of all...I only want to wrestle with this thought to the point where I realize that character is ment to be transformed not submitted to. I mean come on, the most futle of strugles is the one with our own sin. If submission looks like us becoming bound, like sampson, so that God can "come upon us with great boldness" and whoop up on a bunch of dudes (or whoop up on our sin), then sign me up.
Secondly, One of our key values is that "structure must submitt to Spirit". I believe that we can apply that to this discussion of the those concepts of Christianity that are both possible and impossible. Character is our personal structure. It is impossible to over come sins w/o being transformed by the gospel. But all things are possible through Him who loves us. Both the conformed and transformed.
And lastly, If you fry a turkey on Super Sunday. Might I suggest injecting said turkey with Asst. Chief Paul Ishi's home made barbecue and garlic sauce. It is qutie delightful. YEAH STEALERS!!!!!
Willow
Will, good thoughts. The point was not to suggest that character transformation is impossible... but to suggest that our actions are at the mercy of our character, so if we don't like our actions, we'd better get to work on transforming our character.
How 'bout YOU fry me up a turkey complete with some of the Chief's spices??
Bob,
Word. You get the bird and I'll fry it up!
One Love,
Willow
Shut up about turkeys already!
All I have to say is that, if head circumference has anything to do with intelligence, I'm going to have to go with my boy Frame on this one:
http://www.rts.edu/academics/faculty/index.cfm?fuseaction=faculty.bio&id=19
Paste that url in your address field for a picture of the Frame brain!
Seriously, this post has lost all spiritual value.
But on a side note...
Gav-
Be glad for your "Boy Frame". Some of us have the square footage but not furniture!
D Wizzle-
Your just mad cause, now that you live in Cali, you have to eat tofo-turkey's. And that is no way to go through life. GO SKERS
WillTrain
To pull us back on topic, I was trying to summarize the sermon to Evan after church on Sunday, and he asked if we are at the mercy of our character, then how do we change? How do we begin the process of character transformation when our choices are made out of our character?
I recognize that I am representing the argument in a one-sided fashion, but would someone care to elaborate on where this deterministic argument ends and our capacity to change begins? How does that work, and what does it look like?
Lane,
Your question made me think of a couple of things.
Discalaimer: I am going to do my best to skirt around the argument of "Free will vs Election". Because it would be so easy to slide down that slope.
1) Though we argue that character influences and/or conducts our choices. Deep within our soul we have an inate recgonization of who God is and what he can give us that we can not create on our own. And the soul has strength. That strength is conditional to everything that we encounter in our life both good and bad. In those moments, however long they last, where in which we feel weak or fustrated or whatever we can turn to God to ask him to transform us. This is one instance of a person acknowledging God for the change he/she needs, in light of a flawed character.
2) Scripture/Prayer. Within these diciplines and because we believe in the infalliable (sp?) word of God, we can immerse ourselves in truth. We comprehend this truth by the revelation of the Holy Spirit, and our souls will be transformed no if's and's or but's. Because there is no room in light for darkness.
In a nut shell..Light is never so bright, as it is to us during our darkest of days. Just look at Paul's life.
WillTrain
What I am getting out of all this is that our character must change in order for our actions to become different. In order for me to not sin, I have to become like Christ. So does our character change first and then our actions? I do realize that salvation comes first and then a changed lifestyle follows that, in large part because of Bob's interactions with Ryan, the former transsexual. That was a guy who began to love Christ and then his heart was changed by that love. But what about those of us who claim to love Christ and our lives are still filled with sin and wretchedness? Where does it start? Why am I waiting around to be transformed instead of just jumping in, making a commitment to not sin, and crying out for mercy when I fail? In my experience, when you jump in and make a commitment, God transforms your character through obedience, submission, and beggin for mercy when you fall. I am just thinking out loud I guess. But it seems to me, just from my experience that transformation and change in action happens simultaneously and because of each other.
Diddy,
Just a few thoughts:
1) Transformation causes change in character and then ultimatly in actions.
2) There is no difference b/t what has happened in Roberts life and what is going on in yours. Transformation is Transformation no matter the speed nor the intensity. The process is the same, you are just at a different place. Be very careful not to compare ones life with your own.
Salvation or "Transformation" should be placed in the same category. It may have begun on a certin day but it is a process. So you have already "jumped-in", just let him take you down the road.
3) "Making a commitment not to sin" is noble in nature. It is good to set boundries for our lives but it is not complete. But they are not a sufficent supplement for transformation.
Transformation is a un-natural thing to experience it can cause the most pain and joy you have ever known all at the same time.
Thoughts?
WillTrain
Guys,
Great thread!!
Just remember: it's both/and, not either/or. This whole discussion is really a matter of means and ends. Patrick, you're right, jumping in and choosing to obey Christ is what matters. But the ultimate goal of that obedience must be character transformation, not just behavior modification. All obedience, discipleship, spiritual discipline, etc must be viewed as a MEANS toward the END of 'becoming the right kind of person' (to use my language from Sunday).
Hope this helps. You guys are sweet for wrangling it out in cyberspace. May this help us to learn!
Ev-man, To ask if you’re at the mercy of your character is to ask if you’re at the mercy of yourself. It's a redundant question. You are your character. A better question to ask is this: are your actions enslaved to your character? To this, the answer is yes.
Diddy, you weren’t there on Sunday, but Bob used the analogy of people with addictions. Think of someone who smokes. Can that person choose at any time to not smoke a cigarette when they desire one, of course. Can that person just quite smoking cold turkey any time he or she wants? Well, it’s just no that easy.
Of course there is another question: can you become what you are not? This is the question we're dealing with when we speak of spiritual transformation. Though we cannot act out of accordance with our character, our character can be changed by the grace of God.
We cannot just quit sinning at any time. Sin management only leads to a legalism that will destroy us. We WILL fail. Instead, God gives us a new heart and new desires. So our task is not necessarily to seek to obey directly. Instead we are to seek a new heart and new desires that “delight in the law.”
D Webb sings,
“i don’t want medication
just give me liberation
even if it cuts my legs right out from underneath
don’t give me medication
i want the real sensation”
Nice, Gavin, I think we're tracking now... though I think we as a community are asking how, rather than whether, we can become what we are not. Haven't we already agreed that it's possible? Otherwise what are we even talking about?
Another question- is focusing on spiritual formation- whether and how we are changing, how we can change further- isn't that the wrong focus? After all, you can't change what you want just by deciding you don't want it, or that you want something else. Shouldn't we be focused on -warning: vague meaningless catchphrase- all of the facets of God and hope that our desires change through that?
I recognize that there is a need for a corresponding follow through in action- at some point, you have to throw the cigarettes out- but I'm seeking how our way is different from "go and sin no more" on the one hand, and "it's in God's hands" on the other.
Interesting stuff guys! S, Bob, what you're saying is that the difference between "sin management" and disciplining (sp?)yourself to obedience to Christ through scripture and prayer is all in what goal our actions have? So, while "sin management" generally has the goal of self-righteousness and tends to lead to legalism, the same actions that look a lot like "sin management" can lead to God transforming our character if that is the goal?
Did I make any sense there? :)
I think the analogy of quitting smoking is a very good one too. Yes, it is very possible to quit cold turkey. The key is that you have to want to quit. I seem to remember Bob talking about this same idea a few months ago. We can't make ourselves change if we don't truly want to. Hell, I, after two years of not smoking, started again and I'm trying to convince myself that I want to quit even thought that should be a no-brainer considering my very likely genetic leaning towards cancer.
-Travis
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.
Sorry for the length….
While I’m no Thune these are certainly issues I have struggled with and have some thoughts about. I think that you stated that very well Travis. I feel that "sin management" and character transformation (or at least the attempt to avoid sin during this process) can look very similar, at least temporarily. However, the goal or motivation for the actions will surely become evident at some point. To this regard, I feel that the motive behind the actions is without a doubt the most important aspect. Consider the two options:
1) "Sin management" approach: The motive could be numerous things, but likely it would be related to earning our salvation, or looking good for other people so we are seen as righteous. We look great, although our character is self-serving. Our peace, confidence, and joy are wrapped up in how we think people view us, or avoiding all sin so we feel good about ourselves, or whatever. As we have learned from Samson, true character will be shown, simply with time or when we experience trials. When we lose this sense of "goodness" we are deflated. We begin to ask how this could happen when we have avoided sin. Our attitude is one of disdain for those who have things going well. Why should they be allowed pleasure when you are the one avoiding sin? We develop bad attitudes toward the unsaved, as they are Godless, and we can't be around them because they might tarnish our good records. Most of all probably is the issue you brought up about smoking. It is hard to keep it up, because all the while we don't want to obey God because of Him, we want to because of us, and the benefit we receive. This will result in a joyless life that lacks the experience of peace as Christ desires.
2) Transformation approach: We realize our need for Christ and His grace. Key - We see what Christ did for us on the cross, and not just as I do most of the time such as "Christ died for me, sweet, I wonder if American Idol is on tonight?" I feel that transformation occurs when we begin to really understand the wonder of Christ's death and see the gap as in the diagram Bob used a couple weeks ago that looked a sideways triangle. But not only see the gap, but understand that there is a "cure" that is Christ. When this reality takes hold, the motivation for avoiding sin is completely different, and then can lead to God transforming our character.
Here is a good analogy I have heard: A certain pastor was in college planning to go into business, and had to take a musical appreciation class and listen to Mozart. He did so in order to get good grades, to get into a good school, to be rich and successful. In other words, he listened to Mozart to become wealthy and successful. Now, as a pastor, he listens to Mozart not because it will help him become successful or look cool to his friends, but because it is beautiful, it is an end in itself. So it is with serving Christ. If we see the beauty of what Christ did, we cannot help but work to become the sort of people who obey Him. It is no longer about us. This also sustains us to approach others with the same love, because we realize our attempts to be good enough are motivated by the same thing as their disobedience – avoiding our need for a Savior (not to mention feeling valuable or hip).
This leads me to ask multiple questions for application to my own life. I wonder how Samson’s outcome may have been different if instead of Judges 15:20 saying he ruled for twenty years, it talked about his progression to a place where he realized his need for God, and was transformed by that. Could he have resisted Delilah then? Can this be true for me/us? At what point will avoiding sin become a natural part of our character as opposed to a really difficult struggle? Ever? Obviously we will still sin, but will the reaction to that sin, and the desires leading to sin become healthier at some point?
Gavin and Will, thanks for the clarification
Hey Bob where did you find this Lane character? Is he one of your seminary professors? Seriously that kid is a genius. Mainly because he said what I was trying to say. I have been wrestling a lot lately with where God's direction and motivation stops and where my action begins. The last thing I want to do is manage my sin so people think I am sweet. But at the same time I am sick of sitting back and waiting for God to transform me. I get into the mindset that "God must not transforming me (I keep on sinning). Therefore God must not care that I sin, otherwise He would make me stop."
I like Tommy's post as well. I am not trying to be obedient to make people think I am sweet (at least most of the time). Rather I am trying to follow God and His word because I love Him.
Let me use the analogy of marriage to illustrate where I am coming from. I get the feeling that married guys have an easier time resisting sexual immorality (note: easier, not easy). Some may argue it is because they can actually honor God by having sex with their wives instead of dishonoring God by partaking in it of another way (premarital sex, adultery, msturbation, etc.) While that is true, I would point to the fact that married men have also made a commitment to their wives. Bob, I would assume that you do not have sex with other women or look at pornography not because you want people to simply think you have good character or are a good husband, but rather you abstain from those things because you love your wife. That should be the same reason we choose not to sin, and generally speaking that's where I am at (at least this week).
I guess what I am trying to say is that I am not conviced that actions are an output of character and that's it. I think actions can actually play a part in shaping your character as well. I don't know why I think that other than that is how I have experienced God work in me recently. I feel God has used my actions and my obedience to Him to shape my heart in ways that are different than how he changes me with grace alone. And in the same vein, sin causes harm to my character.
I hope this all made sense, and I would love more comments. I am eating this stuff up because I don't get to interact with you guys too much anymore.
Diddy, you're exactly right. Actions flow out of character, and actions shape character as well. If we sit around and do nothing... nothing is exactly what will happen to our character.
Ends and means. It's actions focused on the right goal that are the key.
And yes, Lane is a genius, that's why we like him. You can only get him to throw down in cyberspace, though. He's an internal processor. He told me that he learned everything he knows from you.
Lane, we don't like you JUST because you're a genius. You also look pretty hot in a pink tutu!
I want to see those pictures!
Curse you, papparazzo! Just let me live, you vultures!
So I just finished that Willard article along with my gyro from Feta, and that was a meaty meal indeed.
Go read it for a far more articulate explanation of what we've been discussing here, without the disturbing tutu-related mental images.
I think you're beautiful without the tutu Lane.
whoops...
-Ryan Beck
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