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While I agree in principle, I’ve known too many Christians who carry this idea to a cartoonish, jaw-dropping ignorance of, and therefore irrelevance to, the culture at large.

We do live in the world, after all, and interacting with people in it means we must to some degree become acquainted with the uglier side of life.

Living in the tension that results means recognizing sin in all its destructiveness, rather than being attracted to it- a tall task indeed. It necessitates diligence in the Word and in prayer, and help from fellow believers.

But I’ll accept living in that tension if it means I can go watch Die Hard for the fortieth time.

Lane – Talk more about “living in that tension.” Let’s open up diologue on how living in this tension is different from “having your cake and eating it too.”

I see living in tension as striking a balance between two extremes of behavior/philosophy/etc that are both true, at least on the surface. Another way to look at it is applying Biblical principles to specific situations when alternate courses of action, or alternate decisions, can be supported by those principles.

…

I’ve been sitting here for 20 minutes now trying to think of an example that doesn’t collapse like a house of cards when examined a little more rigorously, so maybe I’m wrong. When Todd wrote about holding on to idols a post or two ago, I commented that seeking material wealth for the right reasons, i.e. for the advancement of God’s mission, was a valid pursuit, and supported it with something about being thankful for God’s blessing and using it to serve others. Obviously, pursuit of wealth can also be quite a bad thing; I proposed it depends on your heart, your motivations. Maybe that is an example?

So aren’t both sides Biblically true? Maybe not, maybe my side in that example is just a half-baked rationalization.

It would be pretty like me to justify whatever I’ve already decided to do or to think with a misapplication of Scripture or a plausible but ultimately faulty generality.

What do you think? Does the type of situation above really exist, or is it actually that such cases haven’t been reasoned through completely?

Oh, and for all of you who read the blog but won’t post because it’s ‘intimidating,’ if I can spout off like a sanctimonious doof, you can certainly post.

Mmm, humility! Healthy but not pleasant, like oat bran or jogging!

First off, i happen to like oat bran, and someone i know likes jogging!

All kidding aside, let me comment on your example. I would not disagree that the pursuit of wealth is not a sin in every case. Certainly there are instances where the right motivations drive someone to attain wealth for the glory of God.

In your first comment, you describe a certain set of christians who are “cartoonish, ignorant, and irrelevant to the culture at large.” What I’m wondering is this: can there be a middle ground between those ignorant of culture, and those engaged in the sin of culture? On the one side we have christians who wouldn’t venture into a movie theater for anything beyond a G rated movie. Then there are plenty of us who are willing to see *almost* any movie that hits the screen. Now, if I sit in an R rated movie and see something that I recognize as sin, am I ok just because I recognize the immorality of what I’m seeing?

I really don’t mean to say that we shouldn’t see anything but G rated movies. And I know there is a way to engage culture without taking part in it, but I’m wondering what people think about some of the grey areas (movies, alcohol, clubs, etc.).

So all this to say, I see the “tension” as the struggle between right and wrong; however, does choosing right mean only watching G rated movies? Going back to bob’s willard quote:

“There are many things we need not see and are better off not seeing – though, if you wish, you have a ‘right’ to see them.”

So to better word my question, can we reject sin while still engaging in culture without the result being our engaging in sin?

I think the answer to your question is yes. I don’t see that we can engage culture without understanding it, and developing that understanding means observing and even participating in it. If nothing else, we can identify the lies clouding the truth that we hold dear. It would be pretty hard to hear the cries for help from the world with our fingers in our ears.

I further submit that we can and should learn from culture. Many times, I have understood a spiritual truth through the insight gained from an unspiritual source. Tell me you didn’t better understand sacrifice and living for something larger than yourself after watching Braveheart. Should we have skipped it because it has violence and sex?

Look at Paul in Athens for a biblical example.

And quick takes on the other topics- i have yet to hear any compelling argument for swearing off alcohol other than when self control is difficult, like family histories of alcoholism, etc. So while I fully support the choice to abstain, I can’t see how drinking in moderation is a sin.

Nothing inherently wrong with clubs or bars either, though it is more difficult to keep that covenant with your eyes in those circumstances, I’ve found… but that’s a whole ‘nother can of worms.

I think the point I want to make is that we need not run from the culture when we are with each other, building each other up, challenging each other and holding each other accountable. Living in that light will expose sin for what it is, and it will hold no power over us. And so we will have the capacity to appreciate what is good and true without being seduced by what isn’t.

Your last paragraph definitely makes your argument. That is a great answer to a sometimes paralyzing question. Alcohol, clubs (aka sexual sins), etc. aren’t sins themselves, but as you said, those things make sinning much easier. But with or without those catalysts, we will still be sinners! There is no remedy for sin but the grace of God and the community in which you describe (and in that order).

Great discussion!

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