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I think people’s mass condemnation of cuss words is a bit puritantical. Words change. “Puritanical”, for instance, didn’t always come with the negative connotation of a stodgy, close-minded acestic (“No dancing!” he shouts). “Calvinist” wasn’t always a title that made people flinch. These words aren’t cuss words, but if used sharply in a heated theological discussion, they can sure sting the same. To stigmatize f*** doesn’t seem very much different from calling distressed jeans “unholy”.

Words are more like containers for elements than the elements themselves; you can fill f*** with just about any emotional substance that you want. (People do, too: the f-word is the most versatile word in the English language.) The analogy is good, which goes to show it isn’t mine: Jesus said “First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean” Matt. 23:26. He was speaking more generally, but if are our words really are the overflow of our hearts (Matt 12:34), I think the deduction is biblical.

But: I’m Evan, and often wrong.

I think there is obviously some decorum and societal appropriateness that we should abide by to be good missionaries. (unless it’s a situation that warrants a certain word to make a missional point. . . as I believe Piper’s did).
I found Wayne Grudem’s letter to Piper a bit high and mighty. We are a multi-cultural society and one man’s “obscenity” is another man’s common verbage.

The rule of the weaker brother should apply here, . . but I think Piper wasn’t even close to the line, and I think folks should investigate the context of a person’s words before jumping on the legalistic bandwagon.

Aaron

I’ve always had a hard time with cussing – if I heard my pastor cuss, that would really bother me. I hated it when my dad would cuss, and I would consider him a hypocrite. Only recently did I realize how hypocritical that was of myself, because it’s just a word, and if I think thoughts that are just as bad . . .
I still think there are better ways to express one’s self most of the time, but cussing does have its place when making a point, I suppose.

Matt VanEpps

Regarding specific rules.

#2 I totally agree with. And I also agree with Evan that the f word is quite versatile (although I would not say the most versatile. That award goes to “run” in my book, but I digress). So, can f*** be said when not referring to a sexual act? Or are you saying that the word is banned because it can be used in that capacity?

#5 Love the vest clause. It is like when senators tack on funding for bridges in their states to laws that have nothing to do with building bridges. Bob, why didn’t you go into politics? You would be awesome at it.

Regarding all of them: You said the debate has been going on in the blogosphere about whether or not pastors can swear. Are these rules across the board for every aspect of life? Or simply for the blogosphere? Dinner parties or a church setting? What if I drop a monkey wrench on my toe? Or how about when I am playing a vitally important video game in which I am trying to keep the Covenant from destroying the universe and the Master Chief gets stuck with a plasma grenade? What are the implications of said rules?

I think you guys are taking this way too seriously! haha

In other news, I think we could have seen this coming had we all seen this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhLCus0tsmw

F-word is off the table. Period. Bottom line. If you say it, repent.

Evan says: “Words are more like containers for elements than the elements themselves; you can fill [them] with just about any emotional substance that you want.” I say: Evan, this sounds like a pretty strong post-structuralist philosophy of language. Which I, as your pastor, am going to challenge, because even though there is SOME truth to it, Scripture says that the Word of God cannot be broken (John 10:35)… if we can pour whatever meaning we want into words, then we can make Scripture mean whatever we want, thus “breaking” the word of God and making it irrelevant.

If Jesus referred to Himself as “the Word of God” (John 1, Rev. 19), I think that means that words are something pretty deep and meaningful.

Kudos, Bob.

words mean things. . . . . I totally agree.

I guess I would just like some humility from the “anti-cussing” conservative camp on the use of words that are not necessariy considered “obscene” in some corners, like for instance Piper’s use of the word a–.

I think our speech should be filled with salt. . and we should avoid coarse joking as Paul said. . . . I just think, when trying to get the severity of a point across. . .certain words do that better than others.
And, what words are offensive is obviously somewhat of a case-by-case basis outside of the hurtful, inappropriate uses. (which I thought your rules did a great job of outlining)

Aaron

BTW, I don’t think the author of these rules went far enough with rule #5.

Let’s get to the heart idol involved here.

The root sin is not the color of the sweater vest, it’s the very fact the one has an inclination towards sweater vests. That’s the sin!

Wayne Grudem and all the watch-bloggers who have wasted hours discerning this issue need to grab their favorite adult beverage and read The Vicar of Nibbleswick by Roald Dahl, preferably to a group of pre-teen boys. The book, written for the Dyslexia Institute, tells the story of a nervous vicar who reverses a key word in his sentences. The book costs $6.99. The explosion of laughter from my three boys as my modest wife read the part where the vicar announces to his new congregation that they should no longer “krap” on the side of the road, but should begin to “krap” on the south side of the church – priceless.

While I wait on my letter from Grudem, allow me to say this (insert Bob’s voice here): People, it’s about the gospel! If your gospel doesn’t allow you to laugh, if your gospel requires you to say “kick in the donkey” it’s time to revisit the gospel.

That’s all I’m going to say about this $#*%*!@ topic.

yeah. . .obscenity pisses me off

I finally read Grudem’s email to Piper. I’m not sure how it comes off as high and mighty. The guy is only expressing concern for a brother’s language and the possible state of his soul. He seemed very respectful and loving in his email to me. Seems to me he’s living out good community by calling out a brother. Just because we may not agree with his position doesn’t mean he shouldn’t have done what he did. I would hope I could welcome criticism as well as Piper seems to have done.

Well I think we all need to have a chat with Patrick for straying down the wrong trail for the last part of #5 it’s not quite a sweater vest but does anyone else hate his pink sweater?? haha

Carolyn

Travis,

I guess what I meant was, not that his tone or demeanor was “high and mighty” (bad term. . sorry, my fault)
But, just his view of “decency” is one that I think isn’t absolute ,and I thought he was presenting it in an absolute way. I guess I don’t think Wayne Grudem should speak for a group of college students. . expressing what does and does not offend them, or cause them to stumble, etc. . .
Thanks for the correction,
Aaron

Haha, I agree and disagree. I think there must be some sense of absolute “decency.” At the same time, decency seems to be somewhat defined by culture. I mean, if we could travel back in time to the 1st or 2nd century and dropped the f-bomb I doubt anyone would take offense. It would be gibberish to them. But, the idea behind the words is absolute and many times an idea that a Christian should not be affirming, no?

What I think is most important is our motive behind why we feel the need to use some of these words. Sometimes a person would use a word like “ass” or “shit” to make a point stand out and I don’t see that being a sin nessecarily. However, how often are our motives that pure? I think that’s what Grudem was getting at.

Also, as some of us have been reading Grudem’s Systematic Theology text at Coram Deo, I have a high opinion on his study of the word and his maturity as a Christian. So, while my initial reaction to hearing him say that cussing may not be as acceptable to God as some of us younger guys may think, is defensiveness, I will take a criticism from a guy like him seriously.

Besides, “‘Everything is permissible for me’-but not everything is beneficial.”

Agreed on Grudem’s systematic theology. . . .loved that book, it really helped me alot.

And I do take what he and Piper (his apology) said seriously. Good word.

I just feel like the people that had a problem with it were not in attendance at Passion and thus, were not his intended audience. . . It’s not like he used it in his own Pulpit, in front of folks that he knew would be offended by it

( in the internet age, perhaps this “excuse” doesn’t hold water. . . but there are different venues and different audiences).

Piper was trying to connect and (admittedly) he was going for some shock value in gaining the ear of the college student 40 years his junior. Anyway, . . .good dialogue

Aaron

cussing is a difficult subject for me because of all the linguistic subtleties and its further relativistic nature (i.e. shit is not going to ever be a swearword for someone living in tibet). so my thoughts on the subject are few.

dt’s comment about the gospel struck me. the nature of bob’s post is such that we are trying to draw out the lines of acceptable swearing. which words are ok? in which contexts? with what motives? we talk about it like adolescent boys ask about sex. they always want to know how far they can go without sinning.

what if we thought about swearing (more broadly: speech) in a slightly different way. romans 13 says, “do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.” that is a slightly different paradigm. it really isn’t very difficult to cut out swearing if you really want to (that is, if you can set the parameters). on the other hand, what if we concerned ourselves with the pursuit of speaking “only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs.” not only does this pursuit tell us to give up our unwholesome talk (cussing), but perhaps neutral/pointless speech might go out with it.

now, this is where the gospel come into the picture. the gospel frees me to love others. to lay down my life for the people in my life and serve and encourage them. it frees me to constantly seek to “build others up.” i think if this was our pursuit, swearing would be a moot point.

as i’ve learned about myself, i’m probably the least encouraging person i know. its kind of like a foreign language to me. so if this seems burdensome to you, believe me that i am right there with you. but fortunately “the gospel changes everything” and “it is the power of God.”

just to let you know Piper has used words like “bitching” before while preaching at Bethlehem. I was there…and I also heard him say “SNAFU” in a prayer one time which I think in military terms means “Situation Normal All F***** Up”.
Don’t you think when Jesus called the Pharisee’s “broods of vipers” or “white-washed tombs”, or when he called Peter “Satan”, that could’ve been considered harsh and indecent at the time?

word derrick

romans 13 says, “do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.”

You meant Ephesians 4 right?

I hear where you’re coming from Aaron. The intended audience is definitely a consideration IMO.

Good discussion, though I think we may be thinking about this all too hard! haha I was under the impression that the 5 rules of cussing were laid out here more for humor than where we’ve taken it.

I’ve thought about adding my voice to the fray several times, but didn’t have anything of value to add… swearing, like r-rated movies or alcohol, is one of those topics that I don’t have much interest in discussing, because it usually reduces to hand-wringing pedantry on one side and stiff-necked libertarianism on the other, and the high ground of scripture can be claimed by both parties (though not equally or correctly in both cases- no relativity here, Bob).

Kudos to Derrick for striking at the heart of the matter. Without (completely) discounting the ‘consider your witness’ line of thought, swearing is noteworthy only insofar as it reveals the conditions of our hearts. I don’t think Christ, or Bob (as the author of this post) for that matter, is interested in us working out the particulars of a new law. I think he is baiting us, as a matter of fact, and we are missing the point if we wrangle over the terms and conditions.

It seems to me that the rule of the weaker brother applies here. Those of us who swear should refrain in the interests of our sensitive friends- besides, on a practical level, swearing is oafish, and we should seek more eloquent ways of expressing ourselves. And you non-swearers among us might ignore the coarseness of your brother, lest you drive him away from the very community that will transform him into someone like you.

The real difficulty here is not in avoiding the f-bomb, it’s placing the demands of your brother above those of your own pride- especially when you think you are right. Die to self.

All the same, I’d avoid the use of raca, just to be on the safe side.

Being a guy, I rather frequently feel it would be helpful to express my deeper feelings with a good cus word or two. You know: vent a bit, get expressive, have some impact.

And fortunately, I don’t usually act on that feeling. Especially since God seared into me a lesson deeper than my desire to sound off.

It happened during a heated discussion with my wife, during which I threw in a couple of cus words to let her know just how intense and upset I was. It certainly got a reaction, but not at all what I expected: she was offended. No, hurt and wounded is more accurate.

After 25 years of marriage, I found out that she wasn’t “just one of the guys.” I also found out that I had gotten less spiritual and less mature during that time. And that such talk is not necessarily cool, effective, or harmless.

I also learned to value the hearer’s feelings instead of my desire to vent. If we want to make a rule about cussing, that would be a pretty good start.

“Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.”- Romans 13

BROOOO, if Piper or Driscoll cussed at me because I wasn’t reading my bible – thus, making me a feminine man… I would feel like a woman in their presence. I would immediately pick myself up off the ground, adjust, salute, and gain a little courage to redeem myself as a man. I think it could definitely “build me up” and would “benefit me as the listener”.

There are two instance I can think of off the top of my head which make cussing wrong.

According to TZach 1:13: “Thou shalt not cuss if one is desiring to bring selfish attention to themselves or because they can’t control their thoughts or feelings.” Everything else counts… well, at least you think of some more reasons.

just stop talking and you won’t have to worry about it

Nick, your last comment sounded like one big cuss word to me!

I find it rather ironic that this post and discussion on cussing comes just after the post for January 14, in which the terms “Kingdom of Light” and “Discipleship to Jesus” are prominent.

OK, let’s take those terms as our cue. We can then ask “How does _anything_ I have to say (whether it is cussing or not) extend God’s Kingdom and advance me on the road of discipleship?”

From that perspective, I suspect that much of the things I have said–both coarse and genteel–really hasn’t counted for much.

And it makes me rather ashamed of how I have often valued my individualism and freedom so highly, while thinking so little of how it affected others.

tyler zach, if I hear one more f****** word out of you… well you’ll be sorry

Nick, why don’t we grab some coffee and talk about it? I’m not sure who you are.

I think it’s funny that people still try to soften words in blog comments with dashes and such.

That’s fucking dumb.

Also, you not reading your Bible has nothing to do with your or anyones gender. I know people like Driscoll masturbate to such ideas out of their own insecurity, but that’s some dumbass shit.

How’s that for a manly rebuke?

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