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I don’t think that Christian maturity can properly be measured by how much money one gives to the church, or weather or not one’s involvement in the church is officialy documented in the membership roster. But that is not to say that those things aren’t important (although I do have mixed feelings about the membership thing).
The number that concerns me more is that only 63% of people are involved in an MC. Missional Communities are where the real heart stuff happens.

-Micah

…and as for all you ladies out there – my number is 960-6744

Bob-

I think that statistic is real interesting–55% think themselves mature… Not that age is everything, but the fact that we are all young(18-35) and also that 43% of us are new to a gospel centered church(1 year), I find it hard to believe. Don’t get me wrong…I’d LOVE if it were true, but probably not.

Bob, could you make an attempt at defining what is a mature christian???

I give money(when I make any), have been around for 3 years, am involved in an MC and probably would NOT consider myself a mature christian. This isn’t me trying to sound humble, I’m actually feeling brought low as I write this. The truth is there is just too many times I don’t trust Him, too much I don’t know, too little I reach out, and besides I have far too short of a track record…3 yrs is nothing in light of 60+.

I’d love to consider myself like a young Joshua(Exodus 33:11b) or David(1 Sam 17:20-27) or an Elihu(Job 32:6-8) but I just don’t know. I do know the love of my Savior is more than enough to transform my wretchedness, if I hold fast to him and stand my ground on the firm foundation he has laid. But that’s all I would admit to know on a survey. With out Jesus I’d fall away so fast, its not even funny.

Micah…DUDE! Don’t list your number on the blog. Don’t give a girl your number and wait for her to move. Bob is right: some dudes at CD gotta either “grow a pair” or start praying like crazy for the courage ask out the girls that I always here them talking about!!

-Trent

I applaud Micah Bruce making the first move by listing his number in the blog comments. If I was a lady…

Let me preface by saying that I loathe church surveys. . . . .with that out of the way, my un-biased opinion is that:

Great leaders of the faith like Luther, Calvin, Augustine, etc. . . . would probably not consider themselves “mature” Christians for the sake of humility. So, the question is funny (and I believe Bob is right. . .it’s even funnier that so many of us would put ourselves in those categories).

Also, even though studies show that most are truthful on an anonymous survey, . . I still think that ENOUGH folks aren’t honest that render the data not totally reliable. Not completely un-useful,. . . they have a place. . .. . but just not as important as we sometimes make them (not including CD in that criticism)

Aaron

I was thinking along the same lines as Aaron with respect to maturity (especially when it comes to assessing our own). Some wise older guy in my past said something about after all he’d learned and experienced in his lifetime, it had only served to show him just how much he didn’t know and hadn’t yet experienced. I think that’s true of following Jesus too.

Prior to attending CD, had I been given this survey, I may have been tempted to check “mature.” In fact, I’m pretty sure I would have since the next “lower” level on this survey had to do with “getting” the Gospel, and I would have thought I had that nailed then. Now I feel like I’ve grown a ton and I am starting to “get” the Gospel, but there’s no question in my mind that I’m a long way from “mature.”

I’d be interested to know what the relationship between consistent MC involvement and maturity is (i.e. what percentage of MC regulars identified as mature, just starting to get it, etc.).

Trent,

On the question of what is a mature Christian, see this sermon from Walker:
http://www.cdomaha.com/podcastfiles/1.14.07FinalSermon.mp3

Micah Bruce, I don’t think the fact that a Christian is giving financially makes them a mature Christian. But if they aren’t giving financially, I do think you could say they’re not a mature Christian. Don’t you think that’s true?

Bob, regarding your last point, the feeling I get is that even if dudes at CD were asking more women out, they would still be saying no. I think most of the women at CD can see some of the immature masculinity you and Will talked about at the men’s retreat this year pretty clearly. It seems to me that most of us dudes at CD are much less mature than many realize.

Micah, be prepared to receive prank calls from dudes pretending to be girls.

>But if they aren’t giving financially, I do think you could say they’re not a mature Christian. Don’t you think that’s true?

Should I?

In response to your question where are the dudes, I’ll tell you why I came “this close” to joining Coram Deo. It had something (almost everything) to do with compulsory giving. And the attitude that a certain percentage is constitutes one of the minimum requirements for “spiritual maturity.”

I read your document on mandatory giving and was extremely offended by your abuse of scripture (which I actually opened my Bible and looked up, by the way. Some of the verses didn’t even say what you claimed they said).

As a Christian of 23 years I consider myself very far from maturity, as should most (or probably all, when measured against our Standard); but I would never look to a fellow man for that assesment, and I would be very careful about assessing someone else’s maturity as well… especially on the basis of mandatory “giving.” (Which really isn’t giving, is it? Call it what it is: a tax or a membership fee.)

Abraham –

Thanks for the post bro. As I read through what you have to say I am immediately reminded of Ephesians 4:31 and what Paul has to say about bitterness. I think the type of dudes that Bob is talking about are those who are rooted in humility and are willing to sit down with other men and enter into dialogue over positions they do not see biblical relevance for. The type of men who do not allow bitterness to remain unresolved.

Also, if you look earlier in the fourth chapter of Ephesians you will see Paul talking about Christians growing up into maturity through a community of people speaking truth in love. Often this type of truth involves talking to people about the reality of their immaturity and areas of their character that still need to be transformed by the Gospel. That is love being shown in a gospel-centered community. Disciples of Jesus who long to see those around them grow in the fullness of Christ. I would be interested to hear how you read through much of Paul’s letters with a lens that people should not receive spiritual assessment from more mature Christians (especially the pastoral letters which include 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus).

Josh H. –

I will look into getting those stats for you in the next couple of days.

Well you’re right – I shouldn’t have been angry at you folks. I consider myself aptly rebuked, and I hope you’ll accept my sincere apology.

What do they say, “hate the sin, love the sinner?” I say this because twisting the scripture to coerce others into paying money is a grievous sin. (Seems the passive case tends to promote run-on’s.) One that should not be met with bitterness, but with truthful, loving discussion.

And I completely agree that we should be honest with one another about our spiritual condition. If I know of a certain sin my brother has, first I must examine myself to make sure I’m not approaching him in a spirit of pride, (thinking that I must certainly be a “more mature Christian”) or trying to lord it over him. (Luke 6:42, I Pet. 5:2-3, Gal. 6:1). And then I should approach him with love and humility, as you said, speaking the truth in love.

>I would be interested to hear how you read through much of Paul’s letters with a lens that people should not receive spiritual assessment from more mature Christians.

Would you consider yourself to be a one such more mature Christian? And how would you make such an assessment? On the basis of “how much” or “what percent”? Would that even enter into your calculations?

Do you think its possible to receive spiritual assessment from a less mature Christian such as myself? (and I’m not being ironic either – I have been watching and listening long enough to know that you guys would win the “maturity contest” hands-down.)

But how would you measure something like that? If I was making a survey, I probably wouldn’t have a question like, “Do you consider yourself to be a mature Christian, YES or NO?” This pretty much leaves the door open for, “Well, I wouldn’t /consider myself/ to be especially *immature*, so…” Then again, I’d be just as unlikely to ask, “On a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being Enoch and 1 being Nimrod…”

I don’t know too many people from Coram Deo, but it’s highly unlikely that you’ll find a church anywhere, where 55% of the people are “Mature Christians” (maybe Spurgeon’s church? )- whatever that is and however you measure it. I’m not disagreeing with you there – and if there are overmuch people who think that they’re right up there with Elijah, they probably need a good talking-to.

But the question was, “Where are the dudes?” I think Bob was asking a sincere question, and I gave a sincere answer. My answer was, “in a church where I feel I can give or not give as I’m led by the Holy Spirit. In a church where I feel I can trust my leaders not to overstep their authority into personal matters, such as what I do with my money.” (Please note, no personal offense is taken here. This isn’t a “It’s MY money and NO ONE is going to tell me what to do with it >:P thing. Just a strong belief that this isn’t an area church leaders should have absolute control over, especially not on the basis of scripture references taken out of context.)

If it weren’t for those two extremely minor issues, I’d probably be signed up and attending regularly.

And I’m not trying to malign or speak evil here: my only intention is to give an honest answer to an honest question. (You should never ask, “Why don’t you like me?” unless you’re ready to hear either the real reason or, “Oh, I do, I do… [stroke stroke]” ). lol

And you should never laugh at your own jokes. lol

Finally, as I read through your answer to what I have to say , I am immediately struck with the impression that I may have touched a nerve. And I am reminded of passages like Matthew 7:1-3, John 7:24, John 8:7, Is. 65:5, Romans 14, and James 4:11. Maybe these are some of the passages, rather than the letters of Paul specifically, that started building up that lens, or way of thinking – the idea that the Lord looks on the heart, whereas men can only see the outward appearance. This is why we “confess our faults one to another” (James 5:16) – because if we didn’t, some of us (me) could go through our whole lives and appear to (most) others to be completely faultless, when nothing could be further from the truth.

Josh –

Of those who attend a Missional Community:

59% would identify themselves as a mature disciple
41% non-Christians, new Christians, or religious people who are just starting to ‘get’ the gospel

I think the data on singles might be a little misleading as I don’t remember there being any “in a relationship” box (just single or married).

Abraham,

1. I’m glad you opened up your Bible and looked up the verses we referenced in whatever document you’re talking about. That shows character, and I applaud you for it.

2. If you are looking for a community where “I feel I can trust my leaders not to overstep their authority into personal matters,” you are looking for a community without biblical eldership. Maybe you could clarify where the Bible distinguishes between “personal matters” that no one gets to speak into and “public matters” that it’s OK for leaders and Christian friends to speak into.

3. We are not interested in ‘coercing’ anyone into giving. Membership is entirely a voluntary choice, and CD members agree together to a 10% tithe as a basic starting point for the spiritual discipline of giving.

4. I appreciate and second Justin’s request: if you would like to sit down with me and indicate where you feel like I have misrepresented Scripture, I’d be happy to have that conversation. Making such accusations on a blog post is neither humble, nor biblical, nor charitable. To my knowledge we’ve never met, so maybe introducing yourself would be a good starting point for dialogue.

I struggled with the maturity question. Here’s why. I’m not sure that I consider myself a mature Christian. But I felt that it described me better than “non-Christian” or even “just starting to get the gospel”

I would have checked “maturing Christian” box, but that wasn’t available.

Thanks, Justin. Interesting that (on the maturity question, broken out as “mature” and basically “all other options”) MC attenders are pretty representative of CD attenders overall.

FYI, I don’t mean to discredit the ‘mature Christian’ answer. I do think there are many mature Christians within Coram Deo who are living the life of a disciple of Jesus – and if you self-identified yourself in that category, it’s possible that you’re right on. It’s just that I’m pretty darn sure it’s not 55% of us.

If you’ve never asked an MC leader or elder whether THEY would consider you a mature Christian, that’s probably the first place I’d start. We all tend to look at ourselves through rose-colored glasses… community is a great corrective.

Nate,

That is good clarification and feedback; thanks for letting us into your thought process in answering that question.

Kendall, I also, appreciate Nate’s comment and would also have marked “maturing” as a first choice.
This comes to mind as I read the other thoughts on “mature” vs. “immature”. I think part of maturity is being a person who will own up to our stance …one who is willing to stand before God and ‘fess up to the truth of what we have said/where we are/what we do. That is harder than it sounds. When I marked mature I felt kind of embarrassed.But it meant that I will take on the humbling responsibility of admitting my failings… all of my weaknesses are tallied and accounted for… (to the best of my knowledge today). It doesn’t mean that I have arrived or ever really intend to until I walk through heaven’s gates. Does this make sense?
c.

I love it when people gripe about giving time/money to *their* church. Are you kidding me?! I have way bigger problems with Christians/the Church than that. Either you’re really broke, in which case, they won’t expect much from you; or you’re loaded and greedy…. and not a Christian at all. Maybe a ‘maturing’ Christian, at best.

I considered taking the survey, but being a guy and a strew of other things would have totally ruined (or helped??) the statistics here. On second thought, I may be thinking of a different survey; I haven’t been around lately. Regardless, I would have put a wrench in the gears of these stats…

Abraham, dude… I’m gonna tell you something that perhaps no one ever has: Just because you know your Bible, doesn’t mean you’re a Christian. Plain and simple. And you may never be. How often do you find yourself disagreeing with other Christians? How often do you find yourself leaving churches -or not ‘fitting in?’ Be aware that *you* may be the only variable here. Just a thought… I fight with this all the time.

I love you all and am glad to see what y’all are doing. Keep praying…

-Flanigan

Abraham, what I meant by the statement of mine that you quoted, was that if someone who claims to be a mature Christian is not giving to their church, they should question why they consider themselves mature. It seems to me that Paul, in 2 Corinthians 8, expects that Christians will give financially. I’m not saying he’s commanding it, I’m saying I think he simply saying that, generally, a Christian gives financially. So, for a person to call themself a mature Christian, and yet not practice the discipline of tithing seems to be self-deceiving.

Regardless, I appreciate that you find issues with how CD runs. We are far from being the perfect church and I think there are plenty of things that we need to continue to repent of, as well as things we don’t yet know we need to be repenting of. So, like Bob wrote, I applaud you for bringing up what you see as a grievious sin in what seems to be an overall loving manner.

So I can’t believe that we are talking about this tithing nonsense and ignoring the REALLY alarming comment that was made earlier in this blog: Thank you, Micah, for proving Bob’s point about lame Coram Deo men. However, posting your number on a church blog is somewhere between writing your number in a bathroom stall and filing a personals ad in the local newspaper. What a fine example of a non-passive Christian male!

P.S. Disclaimer: This is not a direct target on Micah, who actually had the guts to respond. We look forward to your graduation to online dating, which is most surely the next step in your path to Christian maturity. Boo-yah!

Wow anonymous,

I wonder if the guys are avoiding angry single chicks? Is that kind of angry sounding sarcasm a good motivator for a guy? More likely than not, that would be an example of “kicking them while they are down” as opposed to “speaking the truth in love”. That’s just poor sportsmanship. Apologies if that was meant predominately as a joke, but that kind of sarcasm is about as attractive as passivity. I’m not excusing passivity in or the absence of men, I grew up being impacted by imperfect parents, but so did a lot of guys. Again, if that was meant more as a joke than biting criticism, anonymous, then my bad.

I’m compelled to respond to the anonymous female who took it upon herself to supposedly speak for so many of us. First, it may be wise to consider the possibility that Micah posted his number in jest. That’s personally how I perceived it. But even if it wasn’t, that kind of bitter attack with sweeping blanket statements is highly inappropriate.

As a single girl, it doesn’t take much time spent with other groups of males to be reminded how thankful I am for the men in Coram Deo who I’m privileged to call my friends. Do some men in our community have a ways to go? Sure. However, I know I’m not the only one who can say that I, too, am still learning how to bear the image of God and glorify Him in my gender’s unique design. That’s a challenging process, and I’m often “lame.” Let’s extend some mutual grace on the road of sanctification.

I considered putting a disclaimer at the end of my telephone number remark (such as “JK”) but I did not – because I thought that it was quite obviously in jest.
Also, to post such a strong comment (or any comment) on a blog anonymously is unacceptable and will be disregarded. If what you have to say (especially criticisms) can not be accompanied with your name, then you probably should not say it.

-Micah Bruce-

Also, in response to Travis…

” Travis L. on 24 April 2009 at 11:48 am
Micah Bruce, I don’t think the fact that a Christian is giving financially makes them a mature Christian. But if they aren’t giving financially, I do think you could say they’re not a mature Christian. Don’t you think that’s true?”
……

I would have to agree with that logic. A square is a rectangle, but a rectangle is not necesarily a square.

-Micah-

Bob, you asked, “where are the guys.” That was my answer. It wasn’t my intention to be humble or charitable, or to accuse anyone of anything. Just to try and give an answer. I was sort of guessing that if someone had specific reasons for not coming to your church you’d want to know what they were. Your response to my abruptness demonstrates character I haven’t seen in anyone – and I mean, anyone – for a long time. You have my email address – email me and we’ll have lunch some time.

P.S. I have been to your church but I don’t think I met you there.

Thanks,
Abraham

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